When a team member brings you a problem, what’s your first instinct?
Do you jump in to help solve it? Offer advice? Or start taking action before you’re even clear about what they need from you?
As a woman leader in IT, you can unintentionally create more work, confusion, and even chaos when you don’t ask the right questions before responding.
What if a few simple questions could change how your team approaches challenges—and help them become stronger leaders in the process?
In this week’s episode, I’m joined by Alex Winkler, CIO for the City of Boise, who shares how she’s developed a team that brings her recommendations instead of just problems.
We’ll talk about the questions she asks to create clarity, how she’s built a team that takes ownership of challenges, and why creating a learning culture is so important to developing strong IT teams.
How To Ask Better Questions, Strengthen Critical Thinking, and Build a Culture of Learning
Tina: Joining me today on the Empowered Women in IT podcast is Alex Winkler, CIO for the City of Boise. Alex, welcome.
Alex: Hi, thank you for having me.
Tina: Absolutely. Alex has a very interesting background and story of how she got into IT and tech leadership, and I’d love for you to share that with our listeners, Alex.
Alex: All right. Well, as we just mentioned, I’m the CIO for the city of Boise. I would kind of describe my path to this position as kind of like a choose your own adventure story. Like open up, you know, go to page three if you wanna do this and page five if you wanna do this. And then I kind of like peek at the pages and I’m like, okay, I’ll try that. So going with that theme, I started out in the technology space, probably not as many people in technology do. Like I wasn’t like a childhood tinker.
Alex: It’s not like I was coding in my parents’ basement. They didn’t even have one. You know, yes, I came of age during the days of like word processors and the early PCs but I wasn’t tinkering with them. I was off like you know I don’t know at a Girl Scout meeting or playing sports and doing other things. I didn’t even really think about it though I did have the opportunity to use it. So, but then when college came about, and I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do, I wanted a, to go into the Air Force, and I wanted an Air Force ROTC scholarships.
Alex: And there were only like three things on the Scantron that I had to fill out in terms of options. They were like computer, like different engineering varieties, and then computer science. And I was like, huh, well, which of these do I select? And after talking with my dad, he’s like, oh, you’re good at logic and math. Why don’t you try computer science? So I filled out that box in the Scantron. And when the Air Force said, yes, you may have a scholarship, if you major in that, I was like, okay, well, I guess I get to learn computer science.
Alex: So I was a little bit behind the power curve as I went to UC Davis as a computer scientist, being in class with all the tinkerers. But I buckled down, learned a lot and learned that yes, indeed, it was fun and I was good at it. But then I was faced with the or given the opportunity to apply for pilot training. So while I was a computer science undergrad and did well, I then went to pilot training right after graduation and learn how to fly airplanes for the Air Force and did that for about 10 years.
Alex: But as a pilot in the Air Force, you’re never just a pilot, you also are an officer. And so there’s responsibilities that you’re given and you take and different other jobs that you’re given duties as assigned. So I found myself really excelling at different problem solving jobs, whether it be turning around a training shop by creating a new VBA spreadsheet to manage people’s training or different little niche things that I would do, but I always kind of used my core logic and technology training, so to speak, to solve problems in the Air Force as an officer.
Alex: So kind of kept that up, would play with that. And then 10 years in to my active duty service, I was faced with, if I was gonna continue flying, I would no longer be assigned with my husband, where I would be heading to Little Rock to be a flight instructor and my husband to the Pentagon to be a staff officer. And so I elected to leave flying so that I could stay with my husband and start a family. And at that point, I had to think about that choose your adventure novel, right?
Alex: Like what am I going to be when I grow up? What do I want to start doing or trying at that point? And so I decided, well, I really like solving problems and it was when like the Toyota way was just coming of age and everyone was learning about lean process improvement and Six Sigma and all that kind of cool stuff. And so I was like, huh, I want to try my hand at that. Like, what do people that do that in the real world call themselves? And many Google searches later I figured out that they’re called management consultants, and so I was like okay well apply for a job there.
Alex: So got hired by Bearing Point which then got bought by Deloitte to be a management consultant. Didn’t know much of anything except just how to solve problems and then found myself with my client being the Air Force at the Pentagon which was ironic and fun all at the same time. Got my PMP, started doing project management work portfolio management, participating on logistics transformation efforts, getting to apply what I learned in theory in the real world for the Air Force, strangely enough. So did that for a while, got into strategic planning, enterprise governance, all that fun stuff.
Alex: And then all of a sudden we got new orders because my husband was still active duty to Japan. So that my next choose your adventure chapter amounted to now taking twins pregnant with our third, quitting my jobs and following him to Tokyo and restarting right like okay now what am I going to be. So that was my next challenge was recreating myself again in Japan with three babies. And I got a job as a plans officer for U.S. Forces Japan. Japan, but my first job was that of doing the after action report after the tsunami and earthquake on March 11, 2011.
Alex: I found that U.S. Forces Japan really needed to work on their knowledge management. I didn’t even know what that term meant at the time, but I got super into it and was like, oh, this is going to be my next gig, knowledge management. So I got my master’s of science in that, did it while my baby slept, and really got into that, as well as working for US forces Japan. So once we moved back to the Pentagon, I worked for the Air Force Office of lessons learned, became a technology consultant, solution architecture, and finished my master’s.
Alex: And then we decided to move to Boise, Idaho, after my husband retired, and I got to recreate myself again, and got a job with a health information company called Healthwise at the time, running a PMO, and product operations, doing product launches and product management and got to dabble in that as well. Did that for five years and loved it. Got even more into the IT space but also the information space which leveraged my knowledge management degree and then had an opportunity to become the CIO for the city and have just loved that for the last five years.
Alex: It’s been just a wild ride and has gotten to expand my learning into network and infrastructure and all the places that my early technology career didn’t get into, cybersecurity, etc. So now I have a full stack shop doing everything from web development to running a data center, the city’s small data center, to all these different technology projects, web development, everything. So, yeah, full stack and very much like, I’m an inch deep, a mile wide in this current role. So that feels like it was a little bit too long. But that’s how I got here.
Alex: Lots of chapter changes.
Tina: I love everything you shared, Alex. And I wanted you to kind of talk about that. Because I have to say, I don’t know very many women in IT that have been a pilot before. So I thought, I’ve got to have her share this. This is so awesome. And not only that, I don’t know someone who has such a diverse background like you do. I mean, I love the fact that you truly, and you said it yourself, you’ve reinvented yourself many, many times. So I mean, I applaud you for that. That’s truly awesome.
Alex: Thank you. It kind of makes sense like, in hindsight, like how one would lead to the other. But like in the moment, it didn’t feel like that. Like, is that weird? Like, everything builds on itself. But yeah, I predicted where life and my career would take me. So it’s kind of fun.
Tina: Well, that tells a lot about the kind of person that you are. So I think that’s really cool. So thanks for sharing that.
Alex: You’re welcome.
Tina: When we spoke earlier, you shared that you have a set of questions you regularly ask when your team members bring you a challenge. Could you walk us through those questions and what you hope to learn by asking them?
Alex: Sure, absolutely. One of the things that as someone that’s just super into problem solving has to kind of get their arms around is a little bit of self-management, right? Like it’s so easy for one of your people to bring you problems and you just like start diving into it without really thinking about the bigger picture. So when people, when my team comes to me with a problem I really need to assess first like why – like why are they bringing it to me is it because they’re trying to hand me the monkey, are they trying to build my situational awareness maybe, or are they wanting to use me as a thought partner?
Are they just telling me this because they don’t know where to go with it? And I need to help out.
So the why of why someone’s bringing something to you is super duper important.
So I often start with and it kind of depends what it is. Is it a personnel issue, a technical issue, a policy issue? Like, is it pretty discrete or known, etc. So, depending on what they say, I often will ask, why are you bringing this to me? That’s one. I also could start with, what role do you want me to play in this, right?
Are you informing me? Are you consulting with me? It’s kind of like a RACI chart. Do you think this is mine to solve? Like, am I accountable for this? Are you accountable for this. So figuring out what their piece in it and what my piece in it is early on is important, but also what role do they want me to play in that moment? Is it thought partner? Is it boss? Is it, you know, silent partner? Some people just talk to think, I know I do. Like, do you just want to talk?
Alex: Some people are verbal processors.
Tina: Yeah, same. I’m a verbal processor.
Alex: Me too. Although I am in a sea of engineers and many of them are not. So oftentimes it can come pretty fully baked with an engineer because they’re gonna think about it for a hot minute before they even utter a line about it. So I will I’ll ask about what role do I play? What do you intend for me to do with this? And then after we talk for a while I’ll ask questions like: well do you need me to act on this or do you want to? Is this something you’re handing to me or you want to just handle it yourself and you’ll get back to me?
Or maybe you don’t even need to get back me on it. So that’s what I try to go over with people so that I don’t go off half-cocked. I don’t want to inadvertently create spin cycles. I hate creating accidental work for people. So if I go off and spin off and have side conversations about what we just discussed, it can inadvertently create chaos, anarchy, spin cycles, whirling dervishes of work throughout the organization that I did not even intend. So, I often will try to determine what I do next with the information that that person just trusted me with.
Tina: As I listened to you talk about those, you know, the thoughts that come to mind for me is you’re creating so much clarity by asking those questions. You’re not making assumptions. You’re just getting right to the core of, why are you bringing me the problem? What is it you want me to do right now as we talk about this? I think that makes so much sense as we sit here and talk about it, but I personally have never done it.
And I just think, man, why didn’t I ever think to do that? Because like you just said, the fact that sometimes we can create more work for people if we’re not clear about things, or we create other problems, or we jump in and start fixing, or I mean, there’s a multitude of things that we can do. But I love the fact that those questions just create so much clarity. I think those are so powerful.
Alex: Thanks. I always figure clarity is kindness.
Tina: Yeah 100%. So yeah, I think that’s super powerful. Over the years, what differences have you noticed in how your team members approach challenges as a result of some of those conversations?
Alex: Well, what I like about asking questions like that consistently is people start predicting what you’re going to ask, right? Which then, if they can imagine themselves having this conversation with me, they’re going to think through some of the answers before they even come into my office, which has an intended, not unintended, but intended consequence of making them think through their problem at a deeper level, which then in turn empowers them to start solving it. And so it’s almost like the recommendations come more naturally. So people are more inclined to bring me recommendations than problems, which is literally the whole point of leadership.
So yeah, it has the intended consequence of encouraging my people to bring me recommendations, as opposed to just problems and to think more fully through their issues before I get them. It’s less handing off of the monkey. Yeah, yeah. If that makes sense.
Tina: Oh, 100%.
Alex: Yeah, that’s what I see. I mean, it just happened like a couple hours ago. I have one on ones every other week with each of my direct reports. And so I just had one with my infrastructure manager. And we’re talking about the awe-inspiring task of managing SSL certs.
It’s just so fun. And, you know, Microsoft is starting to decrease the amount of time you have to change your certs, right? Your certifications, right? It’s just getting smaller and smaller and smaller. So we have to start automating it, whereas before was so manual. So, like, how the heck do you manage that as an IT department that has divisions, multiple divisions that all need certifications, right? So, we were going over the challenge we have and how this is a multidivisional problem that needs an owner. And in the past, I might have had to bring my entire leadership team together to like start debating and how do we and who gets to run it and all this stuff, right?
It would need to be directed by me, so to speak. But I wouldn’t even know about the problem. So I have to be brought the problem to know how we tackle it, et cetera. But this time was different. My infrastructure manager came to me, he’s like, hey, we just had this meeting on Friday about SSL certs. So and so went off and did all this investigation. I think we have two different ways that we might be able to tackle this as an IT department. I’m like, well, the developer brought you that information, cool.
You’re not a developer. I was like, who’s going to even run this? He’s like, I thought about that exactly before coming to talk to you about it. He’s like, I think this is mine to run because of X, Y, and Z. It’s like, praise Jesus, like this is working. Like it was so cool. They recognized the problem. Different people within IT went off and investigated different solutions. They even brought in a vendor to talk through some ideas. They got back together. They establish ownership and they were coming to me with two potential paths, but not asking for my help, just bringing situational awareness, telling me they were handling it for a multidivisional problem that needs to be solved and ownership had already been claimed.
And I was like, holy cow, amazeballs. I was so excited. So I think that’s the impact of asking those questions consistently, for example.
Tina: Yeah, and I love that example. I mean, it just kind of brings it all home, right? Yeah. So that’s impressive. It truly is so impressive that he had thought about all the things that you might ask him, and already had answers to all that and here’s how we’re going do it and here’s how we’re going to own it and here’s how we’re going to manage it and I love that again that’s so powerful that you’re creating this team of leaders yeah you know just deepening the ownership and and accountability there.
Alex: Thanks. Yeah, it’s pretty dang exciting.
Tina: Yeah, love that team of rock stars.
Alex, when we first met, you told me about an important project that your team had been working on for a year. And when they brought you their recommendation, you felt confident accepting it without hesitation, which I was also going, really, like you just, you just accepted it? Huh? What? Huh?
So can you tell us a a little bit more about what gave you that level of confidence in their recommendation?
Alex: Yeah. The crazy part is the punchline, they brought me a recommendation to kill their project. And I said yes in the meeting. OK, so how did we get there? It was a data integration platform project. We have virtually like what I would call a Rube Goldberg machine of integrations that process every night, like moving millions and millions of rows of data every, every single night. And we’re like, okay, well, we need to get our arms around this beast. Like let’s establish a data integration platform that we can at least orchestrate and see what’s happening every night instead of this crazy system that we have today.
That’s just been built over time, right? So let’s let’s come up with a new approach. So we picked a data platform, a data integration platform we we’re going to use. We did a few proofs of concepts where we tried to build a few integrations using this platform. and things didn’t go well. Like, it was not awesome. It required heavy duty amounts of development time. It was super expensive. And it didn’t produce what we wanted it to produce, which was effectively like visibility, easy reusable code that we can apply to multiple integration patterns.
And it was just no bueno. And so the team came to me, and it was like not just like one division within IT, but like multiple functional areas came to me. And they laid out a really logical explanation of why the project, as we defined it, was failing. How we were unable to achieve the ends that we had started out with. How it was too expensive, and if we extended that same logic to everything else, it was going to be heavy, heavy development cycles to implement. super expensive to run and unsustainable for the staff that we have.
And so the ask was to kill the project and to replace it with an investigation into better understanding the existing Rube Goldberg machine. And their idea was we didn’t effectively understand what we’ve built over time enough to be able to assess how to solve it, to fix it, to replace it. And they’re like, this is what we recommend we do instead to better understand the existing environment that’s been under documented, has terrible source control and needs to be better understood, almost reverse engineered to some degree. And people with loads of years of tech debt can understand being in that position.
We no longer had the intelligence in the organization to understand what actually had been built over time, right? And so I was like, wow, that is incredible. That they figured out not only in a multifaceted way with proofs of concept that what we had tried was not going to work, but they came with a proposal about what we needed to do instead, and a viable plan to do so. And I was like, okay, yes. Like, I don’t need to hear any more. Yes. The group just requested, based on how they presented the logic and the information and then thought about it in such a multifaceted way.
So to me, that’s what success looks like. We’re never going to know going into a particular technical project, like 100% that what we try is gonna work. But when we choose a small chunk, use logic to infer what it’s gonna be as you kind of like build it out and then pivot when it doesn’t work. To me, that’s what success looks like. And in fact, just yesterday, we got to close out the discovery and we know so much more about our existing landscape and are gonna make much better well-informed decisions that we’re in a better position now than we ever have been in terms of understanding the tech debt that we have and the approach that we need to try in the future.
So I’m really proud of the team. It was amazing.
Tina: Yeah, I mean that’s like that’s like every manager’s dream, right? To have your team like do all the legwork and then come back and go, well that didn’t work and here’s what we need to do instead. And here’s why. And here’s how we’ll do it. Yeah.
Alex: Yeah. They were, I think they were kind of just shocked that I wasn’t like upset. Like I wasn’t. I was excited. It was so weird. I was almost like they expected that I’d be mad. Right or or unwilling to make a decision in that moment. Like I was neither. I was, one, willing to make the decision right then because I didn’t need more information, and, two, really, really proud of them. So I expect I expressed as such and yeah, I think they like walked away like a little bit taller and relieved, right?
Because they were imagining having to like, implement this beast, right? They weren’t sure that I was gonna say yes. I think they were just really scared they were gonna have to implement that system citywide. Yeah.
Tina: That’s awesome. Kudos to your team.
Alex: Yeah, thanks.
Tina: For women leaders in IT and tech, who are struggling with getting people to speak openly about challenges. Where would you encourage them to start?
Alex: I think openly discussing challenges requires a certain environment. Okay, and I like to, I guess I kind of just generically talk about the environment as one of a learning organization, right? So if you’re able to create a learning organization, people talking about challenges is like literally open, it’s what you do every day, it’s not problematic, people don’t get worried, other people are going to get mad at them or they’ll be in trouble. Like I’m doing air quotes, you can’t see me, but I’m doing air quotes with my fingers. Like an environment where you sense that people think they’re gonna get in trouble or that someone will get mad or take offense is not a healthy organization.
It’s just not. So you need the psychological safety and the permission in your IT culture or technology culture to have conversations because like this stuff honestly is not personal like give me a break it’s technology so why do we take it so personal? It doesn’t have to be hard if there’s safety in discussing this stuff so I would say if you want to be able to talk about challenges, then what you want to create is that of a learning organization, right?
To do that requires a lot of work. My favorite book that describes like literally how to do it is The Fifth Discipline by Peter Senge. It’s like an oldie but a goodie. He’s like from 1999, but he talks about the five disciplines required to create a learning organization.
One is shared vision, so you need to know what you want to do. It requires excellence individually as teams and as an overarching organization. And then finally, systems thinking. The ability to understand a system, and I don’t mean an IT system, I mean an overarching system, people, process, technology, data, policy, et cetera, right, to really see how. So moving the needle, pushing on one certain aspect will have secondary, tertiary, quadrutiary impacts and start thinking about the impacts you have in changing any one of those dimensions.
So understanding what it means to create a learning organization and having a growth mindset about people. Like, I had a manager the other day that was kind of hoarding information, he was doing it for what he thought was a good reason. And I sat with him and I talked about the impact of him doing that and not being more collaborative. He was trying to protect something, but in effect he was blocking something in thinking that he was protecting. And I just kind of got into it with him like, professionally, right?
And had him explain what his thought process was. And I was like, well, what if you’re accidentally like, I don’t know, obfuscating? Like, what if you’re accidentally blocking progress on this really important project? And he hadn’t thought about it that way. He was just trying to understand it, which I understood too. So I was like, well, what’s it going to take for you to lean in and help out instead of protect? And he was like, I didn’t realize I was doing that. And he issued an apology like immediately because he didn’t see it.
And I was so flipping proud of him. Like, I was so appreciative. Like, he didn’t beat around the bush. He didn’t dig his heels in. He just went to the people he had impacted, apologized, and offered to help. And I was like almost brought to tears. I’m not kidding you because he wasn’t trying to do bad. He was trying to actually do the right thing. But when we had that, after that conversation, he leaned in and apologized and I was like, Oh my God, I’m so incredibly proud of him right now.
That it just made me like, I want to give this guy more leadership opportunities. He’s showing to me that he has a growth mindset. That shows leadership potential, right? More than ever being perfect, but being willing to like see and recalibrate on what you thought was happening and adjust course, apologize and lean in without, you know, hesitating. So I don’t know. That kind of environment is what creates an environment where people are willing to be open about challenges to me. So yeah,
Tina: I mean, and it makes it makes perfect sense to me too, because like you said, I’ve worked in environments where people are so afraid to speak openly and talk about what’s really going on, or what they’re really concerned about that kind of thing. And the culture that we create is everything as leaders, right?
Alex: I’ve had conversations with people like where I’m like, you know, they’re like not wanting to share or, you know, where they are kind of not being open about challenges. And in that moment, I will often ask questions like, what are you scared of? Like, why won’t you go to that person? Why are you holding back right now? Like, and not speaking your truth? And, well, it’s hard to explain the why, right? But I have gotten to, well, I might get in trouble, or I might make them feel bad, or I might, you know, blah, blah, blah.
And I’ll be like, well, what’s the worst thing? Yeah, like, what, like, walk me through what’s the worst thing that could happen? And what does trouble really mean? Is it like the city, like, you’re gonna get your hands slapped? Like, what is trouble? Like, you know, well, you know what I’m like, do you really think you’re going to get on a performance improvement plan for talking about this? Or that I’ll get mad at them. I’m like, have you actually ever seen me get mad at anybody?
What would that look like? So I don’t know, I just, I keep asking questions to get at like, what’s the worst? Like, walk me through what that could be. And then, then people will actually sometimes just laugh about me like, Oh, yeah, that’s like, pretty unreasonable. Yeah, I’ll go have that hard conversation. Maybe I’ve just been avoiding it.
Tina: Yeah, it’s so true, though, because people, just by nature, people think the worst sometimes they just automatically go to worst case scenario instead of, you know, something that is probably a lot more reasonable about what could happen. But those those thoughts are stuck in their head, right? And that’s what keeps them from doing the right things. So it’s interesting. Yeah, what’s the worst thing that can happen? I mean, that’s a great question. And then what’s the probability of that worst thing? Yeah, just to break them out of that cycle of thinking.
Have I ever? Have they ever? Yeah, that’s awesome.
And I loved everything you talked about with creating the learning culture, because it’s so, so important, especially in tech environments. You just got it. Like you said, it’s not personal. We’re just here to solve problems. That’s what we’re doing, right? That’s what they hire us to do. Thank you for sharing all of that wisdom.
Tina: Alex, before we wrap up, is there any other advice you’d like to share with women leaders in IT that we haven’t touched on today?
Alex: I guess I don’t often have clarity around like gender roles in IT, right? Like I guess I’ve just grown up not being limited by my gender comp sci in the 90s with mostly men flying airplanes where it’s like 3% women. So I’ve like naturally been in communities where maybe there’s like less women, but I never even like really think about that. But I guess if I were to try look at maybe some common gender differences, you know, I would see that a trend that I’ve seen with women in IT that I haven’t necessarily seen with men as much is this notion of women naturally opting out instead of opting in.
Perhaps because they self-select and they’re their own worst critic.
Like, I see women more often than men, if I were to have to put it on a scale, saying I’m not 100% qualified for that. To try that, I don’t know that I can do it because I’ve never done it before. Yeah. Yeah, the first time you do something, no duh, you’ve never done it before. Right? I remember my dad sending me a letter in pilot training. It was so, I was giving myself such a hard time. Like, I’m never gonna be able to do this.
My dad was an air traffic controller in the Navy. I’m like, I’m terrible at this. I can’t do this. I’m gonna fail out. And he wrote me a really long letter. It was so wonderful. And he encouraged me to remember that I’m a student and that of course I can’t fly yet. That’s the whole point of being at pilot training. Like why would you assume that you could do it until you’ve learned how to do it? Like give yourself space to learn. and give yourself, assume that you can do it, not that you can’t.
Don’t let perfection be the enemy of the good. So don’t be your own worst critic. Give yourself some space to learn. And I think that that would be my piece of advice to any women in tech. Of course you’re not gonna know it. Like, A, nobody knows it all. B, you get to learn it. It’s even easier every day. It’s easier to learn every single day with what’s available to us, that we don’t opt out, just by default, that we opt in.
Tina: Yeah, I think I think that’s fantastic advice. And I’ve certainly witnessed that in my career, too. I think you’re spot on there. I’ve seen it happen multiple times. And it prevents women from really expanding into more leadership opportunities because I’ve seen I’ve seen it happen so many times when women will say I can’t apply for that job because I don’t meet all the qualifications.
Alex: Yeah I did have a moment of that when I applied for the CIO role here like actually said no I’m not gonna apply for that because I don’t meet all the qualifications like I said it was a friend of mine who gave me the job req. And he’s like, well, how much of it do you think you’re qualified for? And I was like, he’s like 60%. I’m like, no, probably like 80. Like I don’t know the networking side. I don’t know, like city procurement, like I would go through the things that I didn’t know.
And he’s like, well, what would a guy do? I was like, Oh, you did not you did not just like lay down that simple question for me. I was like, yes, of course, they would apply. No, duh. Like, okay, now I’m applying just because you said that. And that was his intent.
Tina: But it, but it’s true. Right. So many times. That’s why we’re not getting the opportunities. You just have to go for it. You have to take the risk and just do it. Because so many times the men aren’t 100% qualified for it either. But they’re not afraid to take the risk.
Alex: Yeah. And I mean, it is a stereotype, but I guess it’s a stereotype for a reason. So my advice would be to talk yourself out of doing that.
Tina: I think that’s great advice. So yeah, and I have seen that happen a lot through my career as well.
Alex, thank you so much for agreeing to do this interview today. And I know that everything that you’ve shared today is going to be so helpful for other women leaders in IT. So thank you so much. And it was wonderful getting to know you and having the opportunity to talk with you today.
Alex: You’re welcome. Good luck with everything.
Tina: Thank you. Take care.
Alex: You too.
Tina: Bye bye.
Alex: Bye.