As a woman leader in IT, have you ever worked in an environment where you felt so devalued and unsupported that you began to shut down?
Instead of sharing your ideas, you put your head down, do your work, and try to get through each day.
That’s where my guest, Wendi O’Neill, found herself after working for a leader who was more focused on advancing his own career than supporting the people on his team.
Then something happened that reminded her what she’d been missing.
A former colleague listened to her ideas, engaged in the conversation, and encouraged her in a way she hadn’t experienced for a long time.
That moment became a catalyst to make a career change.
In this week’s episode, Wendi shares why building allies, advocates, and sponsors should begin on day one of every job and why these relationships are about supporting, not saving each other.
Let’s jump into the conversation!
The Roles Allies, Advocates & Sponsors Play in Your Career
Tina: Joining me today on the Empowered Women in IT podcast is Wendi O’Neill. Wendi and I met—it was actually through LinkedIn. I saw a post that she had shared, and I reached out to her because it was intriguing to me. And so, Wendi, I wondered if you could just take a moment and tell us about your journey into IT and tech.
Wendi: Yeah, sure. First of all, Tina, thanks for having me on. This is fun. I love these kinds of conversations. And I entered into IT actually a non-traditional way. I have a background in education, and as I was going to grad school—unrelated topic, education, nutrition—I actually saw an ad. It was back when ads were in papers to teach computer training classes. And my dad was in technology his whole life. He ran IT for a large company in Boise, Idaho, through his career. And so I always had technology around and was pretty comfortable with computers and tech. So I answered this ad, and I was hired at this computer training firm because I had a bit of a teaching background, but also at the time I was teaching aerobics and doing things, and they were looking for teachers with a little more charisma than their normal teachers. So that’s how I got into tech. I started teaching computer training classes, got to more advanced levels, and just found that I really enjoyed teaching business people and adults education around technology. So that’s where I started, and then got into working with my current company actually through acquisitions and became a people leader of technologists about a decade ago. So I’m now in management, leading people, and I found that I really enjoy that aspect. So I kind of hung up my tech shoes for management shoes, but still really enjoy both aspects.
Tina: I love that. That’s awesome. And what an interesting journey.
Wendi: Yes, absolutely.
Tina: That’s awesome. So, Wendi, you and I have talked a little bit. I wondered if you could start us out and just talk about maybe one of the most difficult challenges that you’ve had in your career and what you learned from that.
Wendi: Yeah, I love this question because I think, you know, being at a career where I’ve been in this industry for about 25 years, I’ve had a lot of different challenges and things, but I’ve also had a lot of great experiences. You know, typically I’ve had really good teams, really collaborative teams, good leadership. But there was a time a few years ago where I was asked to join a team in an area where that wasn’t the case. And I think this was one of the biggest challenges for me because I was so used to working for leaders who really advocated for their people, looked at leadership as something that I’m helping the team grow, be collaborative. And it wasn’t that this person was trying to be nefarious, but they just didn’t have that leadership intent and authentic leadership where they were a little bit more focused on their political power and rising within the company. And so they saw any achievement or accolades of their teammates as a threat. So that was an interesting challenge. And working with a team where he focused more on competition and letting me know what other people are doing wrong, not right. And I spent a lot of time trying to kind of fix that culture and working through that, you know, what I would call a little bit of toxicity within the team. And I just started to kind of put my head down and say, okay, I’m just going to do my job. I really like the team that reports to me, management. I’m just going to, you know, kind of shut down and just do my job.
And I was in a meeting where I was presenting some ideas to other leaders in other areas of the organization. And a gentleman I’d worked with quite a few years before was in that meeting because his team was really part of this collaboration. And I started to go through this project and presenting on this idea. And this leader was so engaged and they started asking questions and bringing other people into the conversation and really making my presentation even better. And it was this moment where, wow, I haven’t had this experience for a while. I haven’t had someone looking at and listening to me and backing my ideas.
And at the end of that presentation, he came up to me and said, “Oh, I’m so glad to be working with you and collaborating with you again. I just love it when you give presentations. It’s like you’re giving a master class in presentations.” And it was one of those moments where it made me feel so good, and it made me realize I hadn’t felt that good in a long time, you know, about the people I worked with and the situations I was in. So it was kind of this catalyst for me, for I need to make a change. Like, I’m not happy where I am. It’s not a good fit for me. And I’m kind of just sitting here not doing anything about it.
So, you know, I started to reach out to my network and, you know, looking at new opportunities within my organization, outside of my organization. And it did take me, you know, six to eight months to kind of find a new job somewhere where I felt this is a good team and collaboration and make that pivot. But he just reminded me that allyships are important and advocates are important to have around you, and that’s the type of work environment I want to be in. And I want to be an advocate and an ally for people, and I also want to be a part of that where people are advocates for each other. So it helped me to kind of make that change and shift in my career, even though it took a bit of time. I was like, okay, I’ve had enough of this. I’m going to move on to something that’s going to be better for me.
Tina: You talked about so many good nuggets in that. The first one that I wanted to point out, and I’ve heard this so much with women that I’ve worked with through the years, and also women that I coach, is, “I’m just going to put my head down and do my work.”
Wendi: Yeah.
Tina: And, you know, when women get to that point, they really are in shutdown mode.
Wendi: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I think a lot of times you think, okay, my work—the work’s just going to speak for itself, and that’s not necessarily going to be the case, especially for women. You know, in technology specifically, it’s a male-dominated industry, and the men around us are typically in that position of power. So do you want to work with someone in a position of power who’s not going to be an ally, or do you want to focus on working with people, typically males in positions of power, that will be a champion for you? And I think we forget that those are some choices, and we need to be looking for that.
Tina: Exactly. You mentioned allies and advocates, and I wondered if you could unpack that a little bit for us and just explain the difference between the two, and what has your experience been with both parties?
Wendi: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think we often use those terms interchangeably, and they’re definitely related, but there’s also a lot of differences, and I think we should be looking out for those differences.
So first off, allyship. You know, usually I see that as people who are supporting you in situations when you’re working together. You know, they’re including you in things. They ask your opinion. They listen to you. A big one for women, if you’re interrupted or talked over, they bring the conversation back and say, “Oh, wait a minute. I was really interested in the point that Tina was trying to make, or that Wendi was trying to make. Let’s get back to that.” You know, they create an environment where your voice can be heard so you can set yourself up for success. They’re not doing it for you, but they’re helping with that environment.
And I see this—I’m kind of—I use an analogy of a three-legged stool where you’re standing on this rickety stool that’s kind of unbalanced, and that’s your career. You know, there’s always ways you can—it’s your job to keep yourself balanced on that stool, and the ally is just there to help block people that might be trying to push you off that stool, to help, you know, if there’s a strong wind, to block that wind for you. They’re not there to hold you on the stool or stand on the stool for you. They’re there to support you in that.
And then when you look at an advocate, kind of with the same analogy of the stool, they’re actually helping to make that stool less rickety for you and maybe adding another leg to it so it’s more sturdy. And some things that advocates will do is they’re going to talk about you when you’re not in the room. Oh, you know what I just heard? And actually the ally or advocate that I was just talking about, when I presented in that room, they actually told another leader about that presentation. That person contacted me and said, “Hey, can you come talk through this with my team?” You know, so they talked about me behind my back, so to speak, but in a good way. And so I think advocates are there saying and talking to others about the good work that you’re doing or the traits that you have that are good that could potentially promote and help you within your career. So again, kind of making that stool less wobbly for you, offering more support.
We had chatted a bit about sponsorship, and I wanted to bring that up because I see a third area where you have an ally, you have advocates, but then you also have people that can sponsor you in things. And I see this as a step further where someone’s actually willing to spend some of their political capital or put their name on the line for you. And this is something I’ve been experiencing actually really recently in my career.
This year, I had the opportunity where a sponsor, a senior vice president in the division I worked for, called me and they asked me to interview for a new job that was a level up for me. And long story short, you know, he asked me to interview for this job because we had a relationship where he has a vision, and I’ve been talking and promoting his vision for our group, trying to get this change adopted within our teams, and he was seeing that. And if he sponsors me for a new role, that’s a step up. That helps him as well. But if, you know, if I don’t do a good job, it hurts him.
So long story short, I interviewed for this job, and it was a panel interview, and it got me visibility with other senior leaders because it was a panel. And frankly, I didn’t get the job, but it gave me a lot of visibility. And he set up some time after the interview to walk through the interview with me and the pros and cons. And he said one of the biggest things that you got out of this interview is you got visibility to other senior leadership. And he said, “You did a great job in the interview.” In the end, frankly, the job wasn’t the right fit for me. It was a stretch in an area of the business that I didn’t necessarily want to go into, but it let me talk to other leaders about myself. And he put some political capital on the line because he recommended me for the job. So if I didn’t show up well, it would have looked poorly on him.
And it also is giving me more opportunity within the company. And frankly, if I am a level up, I’ll be able to be a better advocate for him because I’ll have more, you know, political power within the organization, so to speak, to help promote him as well. So kind of that sponsorship, I think it’s not as—you know, it’s a little more rare, but when you get to positions like that, and I felt really lucky this year to be able to work with someone who’s willing to sponsor and has been an ally and advocate for a lot of women in our organization.
Tina: That is such a great point. And I do think it is rare. I personally have never had that opportunity in my career, but I think it’s wonderful for women that have. So what an awesome man to, you know, to give you that opportunity. You mentioned, I think it was when you were talking about your story, you mentioned your network. And I wanted to ask, when do you think in women’s careers that they need to start establishing that network and, you know, building their allies, building their advocates?
Wendi: Yeah, I think as soon as possible. I mean, you always have to think of your career as something that’s going to grow in part not just by your skills and how hard you work, but it’s also about the relationships that you make. And I think sometimes, especially for women in tech, you might not be, you know, very extroverted out there, but I think even just having really good key relationships—you don’t have to be the life of the party, so to speak, or, you know, the one that speaks up all the time—but making sure you have relationships with key coworkers where they’re people that you respect and that you can build an authentic relationship with. I think day one in every career and every job, you should be looking for those people that you can be their ally. I think this is a really reciprocal relationship that you’re looking for, that both of you feel like, okay, we can have a good relationship where we have each other’s backs. And I think that should start day one in every job that you have. Now, it might take some time, but I think you should always be looking for allies, advocates, sponsors, and being an ally, advocate, and sponsor, you know, looking for the people that you can also, you know, be allies for as well.
Tina: Yeah, I love that. And you brought up a good point. My experience is that a lot of women that work in IT and tech tend to be more introverted.
Wendi: Yeah.
Tina: And so I think sometimes the thought of building a network can feel really daunting to women. I’m curious what your advice would be for how would you start building those if you’re in that camp, kind of this real introverted personality. You know, maybe don’t feel comfortable reaching out. What have you done to start the process?
Wendi: You know, I think I start by looking around at the people that I’m working with and just kind of watching their personalities and how they interact and work with other people. And usually good allies and advocates are people that you see lifting other people up, telling people, “Hey, you did a great job at this, and this is why.” You hear them talking about other people in a good way. So I just start being very curious about, you know, what are people saying? Who are the people that are advocating already or allies, and maybe not even doing it on purpose, but they’re just generally positive. You know, they’re trustworthy. I think that’s a big thing. You know, you hear them, you know, not necessarily looking out just for themselves, but for other people within the organization. So just recognizing, you know, some of those people and some of those traits.
And then a lot of times it is intimidating to ask for meetings, but I would say, you know, approaching that person, and you could even send them an email. Frankly, this is such an email or, you know, an instant messaging, whatever tools you use, and just say, “Hey, you know, I saw you talk about this,” or, “I’m interested in learning more about you and your project or your work.” Like, approach them like you’re interested in hearing them. And I think even with that, saying you’re interested in hearing about them, but also, “I would love to have your advice or your perspective” on something that you’re wanting to work on, an area that you need help with.
And, you know, with women, it could be something as far as, you know, “I’m working on this project. I’d like your feedback on it,” or, you know, just starting that entry. And it doesn’t have to be any major meeting. I would actually say just scheduling a short amount of time, 15 to 30 minutes of time, just to start having those conversations and kind of, you know, looking for a little bit of mentorship. I think a way—people like to mentor. And so saying, you know, “I really like the way you’re doing this. I’d like to get better at this. Would you be interested in, you know, talking to me and giving me some advice around that?” I think that’s a great entry point. But it’s also making sure you’re asking the right people, you know, those people that tend to be promoters of others.
Tina: Yeah, I love that. Great advice. And you’re exactly right. Normally when someone reaches out to you and they’re genuinely interested in what you’re doing, asking you for advice, most people, from my experience, are more than willing to take the time or make the time. Obviously, they have to make the time to give you that advice or to give you feedback on something if they know that they’re helping you.
Wendi: Yeah, absolutely. And I would say that take that responsibility on yourself. If you’re asking for someone’s mentorship, you’re the one that should be setting up those meetings and driving those conversations. So come prepared with some questions, with some asks, you know.
And it could be even as simple as when you’re in meetings with teams and big groups, you get intimidated so you don’t speak up. Or maybe you are talking and you get interrupted. You know, I hear from women all the time, or people talk over you. You could even just say, “Hey, would you mind if I ran by this presentation, you know, just to practice it with you so I feel better prepared for this next meeting?” Or, you know, “I tend to get interrupted a lot and it’s hard to jump back in. Do you have any suggestions?”
And just right there, that person, if that’s in the room, it puts in their head that if they see you getting interrupted in a meeting, they will jump in and say, “Hey, wait a minute. I really wanted to hear the point that, you know, that she was trying to make.” They will typically always jump in. Or you could even ask them specifically, “Do you mind helping turn the conversation back if I get interrupted or people start going on their own tangents?” You know, knowing the personality of the room, people aren’t necessarily aware of that until you maybe point out that that’s happening and making them aware. And then they’re laser focused on it. They really do help in those ways.
Tina: Yeah, and what you brought up about being specific about what you’re asking them for, I think is really key. It’s key in any relationship. You know, if someone is mentoring you, you’ve got to be clear about what you’re asking them for.
Wendi: Yeah, and it’s also important to have some self-reflection, figure out what do you need help with. And again, they’re not there to save you or speak for you. You’re looking for someone to help you become better, right, or get your voice heard. And that’s on you, but they’re just supporting you, not jumping in and saving.
And I do, I have had some mentors at times that I’m like, “It’s okay, you don’t have to save me,” you know. “I’m just looking for your support.” And so sometimes you get some that are so, you know, they’re really trying to help, but they step in for you. And I think as you develop those relationships, you can have those candid conversations. You know, “I’m just—I’m looking for really good support, helping, you know, get some barriers removed, but I definitely want to be able to speak for myself.” So there’s some overextension that you want to make sure is not happening, but that you’re speaking up for yourself and identifying what you want to focus on, what you want to get better at.
Tina: I love that. Wow, you’ve covered a lot of really great information today. If there was a, let’s say a new woman leader just getting started in the field, and maybe she was getting ready to give a presentation, didn’t really know very many people in the organization, I’m curious what your advice would be. Like, walk us through a process that maybe you followed before on how she could garner the support that she might need for that meeting.
Wendi: Yeah, I would say before that meeting, just even asking for feedback, you know, selecting one or two of the leaders and saying, you know, “I plan to present on this and talk through this. Do you think I’m missing anything? Are there areas that you think—I don’t know this team well—what do you think is important to them?” Like trying to get feedback from one or two of those members on what’s important to the people in the room, and how do I maybe adapt what I’m talking about so I make sure and hit the important things for them and help to hopefully solve some of their problems.
But I think reaching out and asking people for help and understanding, everyone, I think, really enjoys giving their feedback. Yeah, you know, “This is the climate in the room. These people are concerned about this area of the business. These people are going to really have maybe ask you questions about this.” So approaching it as, “Can you help me prep for this meeting so I’m aware of, you know, everything that’s on the table?” I think that’s a great way to approach it. Very professional, gets you some time, and it starts to build those relationships.
And then asking them, “Well, what’s important to you? How can I help you in this meeting as well?” Because we want to make sure it’s reciprocal where, you know, it’s not transactional at all, like, I do this for you, you do that for me, but that you’re reciprocating. You’re interested in what they have to say, what they’re interested in, how you could potentially help them with their objectives as well. So part of that relationship building is making sure you’re interested in what’s going on for them as well and being reciprocal.
Tina: Yeah, that is such a great point, because otherwise it is really one-sided, for sure.
Wendi: Yeah, absolutely. One hundred percent.
Tina: Well, Wendi, I think you have covered a lot of really great information today about allies, advocates, and sponsors. I want to just ask one final question, and that is, is there anything else that you’d love to share that I haven’t asked you about today?
Wendi: You know, I think, again, kind of, I feel like I’m at that area of my career where I can give some advice here. And when I look back, I think where I beat myself up or, you know, where I struggled, it was always when I was too hard on myself, when I wasn’t patient with myself. You know, I made mistakes, and instead of, like, dwelling and sitting in those mistakes, saying, “Okay, I learned from that. I’m going to move on.”
You know, I made not a great career choice going to this team. And the funny thing is, I kind of knew it before I got that job. You know, you have that intuition where you’re like, “There’s probably going to be some problems with that,” and I just kind of ignored that. I’m like, “Okay, I need to make sure I’m not ignoring my intuition,” because you know, you typically know what’s going to be good or not good for you.
So just, you know, following your intuition, being patient with yourself, and being patient with the fact that it will take some time, building those trusted and authentic relationships, building up allies, being an ally. It takes time, and just being patient with yourself and taking the time and knowing it’s kind of on you to work at it and build up those relationships.
Yeah, that was a lot.
Tina: Really great advice. And I talk a lot about trusting your intuition on my podcast, and I believe that that is one of women’s greatest strengths.
Wendi: Absolutely. We’re very intuitive.
Tina: We can walk in a room, most of us are pretty good at kind of reading that, kind of figuring that out. It’s about really trusting that, right? Trusting that intuition and then taking action according to what you’re being told.
Wendi: Absolutely.
Tina: Well, thank you so much, Wendi. I really appreciate you taking the time to meet with us today, and I’m so excited for women leaders to be able to listen to this and learn from you. So thank you again for your time today.
Wendi: Yeah, thank you, Tina. This was great. I had a fun time. Thank you.
Tina: Awesome. Thanks.